Posts by Juan Viejo2

I disagree. Getting involved with MLMs would only ensure their poverty. My JW family and friends have all been involved with Herbalife, Amway, Shaklee and a dozen others. They get sucked into them for the same reasons that they got sucked into and stay with the JWs. They are all convinced that their negative incomes from MLM are due to their not investing enough in the business. They need to convert their den or garage into storage areas for more products.

My brother (not a JW) managed to talk my JW mom, my JW sister and dozens of others into the Amway scan. Not because he was a bad guy - just the opposite - he wanted them to use their door-to-door preaching talents into door-to-door soap sales. In spite of having a downline of 20 + gullible friends that really liked and trusted him, not one of them ever made a dime and neither did he.

An amazing fact is that Amway and their clones hold conventions that are almost exactly like JW versions. Talks to encourage, talks to train and convince, and "successful" new salespeople (pioneers) who tell wonderful tales of how they managed to gain great rewards while building their business (all fluff, no facts).

I also had a couple of very close friends who tried to recruit me into the MonaVie scam - and then the long distance telephone scam. When I pointed out that MonaVie had been tested and found to be mostly made of the juices of apple, blueberry, and other seasonal berries - and little or no Brazilian or South American juices - they ended their relationship with me because of my "negativity."

You win some and lose some over time. I count their loss as my gain.

From Wikipedia:

"MonaVie manufactured and distributed products made from blended fruit and vegetable juice concentrates, powders and purées through a multi-level marketing(MLM) business model. The company had been the subject of several controversies, such as the health claims for its products had not been scientifically confirmed or approved by regulatory authorities, its chairman was previously involved in false health claims concerning another beverage company. According to Forbes, its business plan resembles a pyramid scheme. In 2015, the company defaulted on $182 million loan and went into foreclosure."

There was a website many years ago that was dedicated to many of the losers who got involved in Herbalife and Shaklee. Many JWs were into those programs and were always trying to recruit new downliners while out in service and after KH meetings. The website showed hundreds of telephone poles in Central California that were covered with "Call me about the benefits of being a Herbalife business owner."

"As of April 2008, a series of commercials featuring a large red animated fox advertising home-based business opportunities has been running on American television. The advertisements typically feature testimonials from actors playing individuals who have made sums of money between US$5,000 and US$15,000 per month as a result of participating in an undescribed business program. The advertisements direct viewers to a website that allows them to purchase a "success kit". The kit also provides no information about how the business opportunity works. These advertisements have been found to be run by independent Herbalife distributors, as a method of recruiting new downline distributors. While it is not illegal, critics of this type of advertising prefer advertisers to be up-front about their company associations." (Wikipedia)

Even now, after all these years, it is very likely that you could go into almost any Kingdom Hall and ask around to see if anyone knows someone there who sells Amway, Herbalife, or some other multi-level product. The odds are that you would.

Many years ago there was an article in a major news magazine or paper that quoted one of the original members of Nutrilite or Amway about their origins in the 1930s. I can not remember if A (JWs) saw the success of B (Amway and Hoover Vacuum Sales) or vice versa. But apparently Jay Van Andel or one of his associates took note of JWs going door to door and recruiting new members - and then getting those new members to go door-to-door with little or no effort. They were offering people hope and a better future - and coming out of the financial depression of the 1930s - Amway could do the same thing - offer hope - as long as new recruits were convinced that immediate rewards were not important - it was the long term hope of future benefits.

Yep, "millions now living will never die" as long as they keep knocking on doors and getting new recruits. It worked for JWs since the 1930s - and that same hope ("someday you will have your own business and get rich") still exists in every single person who continues to work the Amway and other MLM circuits - including the JWs who got suckered twice by both organizations.

JV

34

JW's Funerals, Forget About The Person! Let's Preach.

by new boy in

jw
friends

god forbid you would talk about the dead person at his funeral.

so what do most people get after living 70-80 years?.

a 5-10 minutes eulogy.

Juan Viejo2

A few years ago, Paul Grundy contributed an article about his father's funeral - perfect description of what other posters have stated in this thread.

http://insidethewatchtower.com/doctrine/attending-my-father%E2%80%99s-funeral/

In my own case I sat through the funerals of my mother, my stepmother and father - and was so angry after each one that I truly wanted to do harm to the elders who gave the talks.

In the case of my father's funeral, I even prepared, with the help of my JW sister, a short biography that mentioned his love of sports, his service in the US Army during WW2 and some other accomplishments. I also mentioned that as a "shade tree mechanic" he often helped other JWs who could not afford to pay for car repairs to get their autos running again.

When I presented the additional remarks to the brother who was going to give the funeral talk, he never put up a fight and just agreed to add them to the biographical segment. I thought everything was OK and all bases covered.

When my brother and my daughters and I went to the funeral talk at the local Kingdom Hall, I was confident that no rules had been broken, that every base was covered and for once I would not leave angry as I had after my mother's funeral.

I can almost repeat word for word what was mentioned about my father:

"Brother 'Viejo' was born in April 1915 in Oklahoma. He married Sister 'Viejo' in 1942. They had two sons and one daughter. He had 8 grandchildren and 6 step-grandchildren. He and Sister Viejo became Jehovah's Witnesses in 1951 and served faithfully for 55 years. He was appointed an elder several times and he and his family moved to 'where the need was greater' in 1963, serving in two different mid-western states. He died faithful to Jehovah after a short illness."

After that one minute biography, the speaker just picked up from there and went back to the canned funeral talk, almost reading it word for word from the outline in front of him.

Needless to say, I am still mad about that whole affair years later. Later I found out what my sister and her family did with his remains. Maybe, since I was the first child and oldest son, I should have taken a more aggressive role - but that would not have been appreciated by my late father as he was a true JW kool-aide drinker.

When I share that store with my non-witness friends they are shocked and state that they would have come back to the funeral "packing heat."

Let's face it, JW funerals are ridiculous and have only one intent - and that is to try to convert the few non-JW family and friends that show up. Fat chance!

74

Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

by TMS in

jw
friends

with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

Juan Viejo2

Off subject: Anyone else having a problem with post-editing? For some reason sentences and paragraphs get duplicated and repeated a paragraph further down when I try to go in and make small corrections. I think my last edit caught most auto-duplications, but it is a puzzlement...

74

Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

by TMS in

jw
friends

with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

Juan Viejo2

TMS - thanks for "reminiscing" and bringing this back to the top. I missed this whole conversation that took place 3 years ago even though I popped in on occasion.

Most of this conversation relates to what happened from the late 1960s to the early 1980s - which I was close to but not directly involved. I recognized very early (even as a teenage JW) that the Watchtower seemed to evolve every ten years. I was active during the decades of the 1950s and 60s, but was also closely connected during the rest of the 20th century.

The personality and mood of Jehovah's Witnesses came out of the somber 1940s into the amazing growth and expansion of the 1950s. Life was actually pretty good for young JWs in the 1950s and early 1960s. But the clamps began to tighten in late 1960s.

I remember that early on there were about three dozen public talks that were rotated a couple of times each year at the Kingdom Halls. We had printed handbills that we handed out when we went door-to-door that had the speaker's name printed on them. We often used them at the door to start our conversation - before we introduced the newest magazines (Saturday mornings) or books and bibles (Sunday mornings). The public talks were often interesting and enjoyable becaue each speaker was able to flesh out the Society's outline and inject some occasional moments that could bring you to tears of either sadness or laughter. The talks were about 55 minutes long and were all different to hear in their own way.

The "elders" were not called "elders" in those days. They were called "servants." They were chosen mostly because of their maturity and skills as speakers, but many were truly saint-like and wanted only to serve the congregation (called "companies" in those early days). My father was a "servant" in those days and he was trained to never criticize, but only to show love and offer counsel to those who asked for or needed help.

Yes, we all lived with restrictions compared to non-JWs. But there was also a lot of consideration for those who served well but did not tow the line 100%. Occasionally when we were teens we would have dance parties - doing the "Twist" and the "Pony" and the "Stroll" - while sharing soda pop and fun food (and even doing a little necking out in the backyard).

Sports were discouraged, but my father (a "servant") was insistent that my brother and I were going to play Little League baseball and other school sports as long as they did not interfere with our meeting nights. While I only played parts of two years due to bad knees, my younger brother played for four years with and against Bobby Bonds and Dusty Baker when he was in Little League - both later becoming superior players in the major leagues. The biggest thrills my father ever had was watching my 10-year old brother hit "homers." He'd even brag about it to the other "servants" at the next KH meeting and never worried about being disfellowshipped or reproved for allowing us to play sports. That was just considered his "personal decision" and he would have to answer to Jehovah for his decisions. Dad was not afraid that Jehovah would judge him too harshly.

The mood changed dramatically in the 1970s. Everything seemed to have more restrictions. That's when I first saw small children and babies brought to the Kingdom Hall and not allowed to have a doll or a coloring book to keep their attention while the adults listened to the talks. Who in Watchtower Hell came up with that idea? My own wife was actually encouraged to divorce me (which she eventually did) because "Armageddon was coming in 1975 and she should not be married to a DF'd non-believer." They didn't call us apostates in those days - they called us "evil ones," those "who rejected Jehovah and his coming kingdom." They had her terrified that sleeping and living with me would cause Jehovah to look upon her as someone not fully dedicated to his service.

They didn't call us "apostates" in those days - they called us "evil ones" or those "who rejected Jehovah and his coming kingdom." They had mny wife terrified that sleeping and living with me would cause Jehovah to look upon her as someone not fully dedicated to his service and would destroy our children to eventually punish me.

The 1970s were quite different from the 1980s - and some JWs actually believed that "1984" (a year pulled out of George Orwell's ass) was in fact, even more significant than 1975, being 70 years from 1914. Some JWs that I knew changed personalities completely during those years. Servants were now "elders" and started to throw their weight around - looking for any reason to "counsel" and "correct" other JWs in their Kingdom Hall. My father resigned as an elder several times because he was under pressure from the other elders to try to find fault with other JWs, especially the younger ones.

So while I had many good memories and some fun times growing up a JW, when I left I was done with them completely - even though I had no idea (or even cared) then how bad their doctrines were or how political the upper echelons of the society had become. I never heard of Ray Franz until 20 years later - only that my father told me that "some apostates inside Bethel tried to take over the organization." It was about 1985 when my hate for the organization really began to boil - but I just went on with my life and didn't give a shit about what was going on inside the organization. I was just glad that I was able to get my three daughters completely out and away from the JWs while they were still young teens. They all grew up happy and normal thanks to my decision.

I was just glad that I was able to get my three daughters completely out and away from the JWs while they were still young teens. That alone was my greatest achievement. My grandkids don't have a clue about how close they came to being third generation JW clones. Even my JW parents recognized that my girls were light years ahead of their JW cousins in almost every way - and mentioned it to me several times before they passed. The JW cousins were mostly an embarrassment to them.

I am sure that JWs from the 1950s would not recognize or enjoy the JW.org version of today's cult as they did. The JWs of 2016 would think that the JWs of that era were far too liberal and perhaps deserving of reproof or DFing compared to current standards. (We teens would hold hands, neck, and even kiss each other in those days - but nothing else!)

The JWs of that long past era would most certainly ask why the Society would sell off and rebuild a completely comfortable and serviceable Kingdom Hall located right in the middle of a good neighborhood or refuse to rent low-cost commercial spaces close to where JWs live - rather than packing 3-5 congregations into one remote building out at the edge of town or in another city.

End of my ramble...

JV

13

Vanilla ISIS & Y'All Qaeda: Oregon Gunmen Mocked On Social Media

by Simon in

i'm crying laughing at some of the hashtags in this article:.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/yall-qaeda-vanilla-isis_568a3421e4b06fa68882bb6d.

if this does one thing, it shows up the craziness of the claim that an armed militia "standing up to the government" has any role in a modern democratic society.

Juan Viejo2

What some observers and reporters miss is the fact that a lot of these "right to carry" and other right-wing gunslingers carrying their military rifles and toting their .45s are really hoping for is that the FBI, the National Guard, and the local police all show up to usher them off of so-called "public lands" and they are forced to take a stand and actually shoot somebody.

I applaud the state and federal government policing groups from taking a more cautious and sane approach to these wackos. Instead of playing to their propaganda that the Feds are there to "take away their guns and right to bear arms," law enforcement seems to be taking the reasoned way of waiting them out and proving that they are just gun-toting wackos with a distorted view of what their "constitutional rights" really are.

But I think that very soon, if not in central Oregon or the panhandle of Idaho, somewhere there will be another similar event and someone will pull out their pistol and shoot someone - maybe even a government officer. The urge to force the federal and state governments into a gun battle seems just too strong at the moment and there are not enough "cooler heads" on the side of the neo-Nazis and "free range cowboys" to prevent "an accident" from happening.

Even in my own somewhat upper-middle-class politically mixed neighborhood in central Oregon, I hear things and notice things that tell me that even my own neighbors are all buying the propaganda that "Obama wants to take our guns away and enforce Sharia laws on us all." Think I'm kidding? Not really. I can count the number of minority residents and liberal voters in my area with my clenched fist. So to have these gun-toting jerks show up in south-central Oregon packing heat and carrying military rifles is no surprise. Outside of Portland and Eugene these guys (and their guns) are more than welcome by much of the local population.

They knew exactly what they were doing and what to expect when they came to make a stand in Oregon. I just hope no one gets seriously hurt.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/extremist_militia_in_oregon_standoff_want_to_overthrow_government_have_children_in_federal_building

JV

18

Can't Understand Why This Is Allowed

by mariet in

i moved to roseburg, oregon.

the jehovah's witnesses are allowed to set up a display and man it right outside of the local library, and they are there every day and hour the library is open.

i am [redacted], the director of the douglas county library system and wanted to respond to your website email of december 11, 2015. i have consulted with the county attorneys office about your concern about jehovahs witnesses use of the front porch of the library building in roseburg, and my understanding of the law is as follows.. .

Juan Viejo2

MarieT - another Oregonian here. I never see them anywhere here in the capital city - I'm sure they are out there, but they hide out very well.

I might suggest that you write another appeal to the Library admin and send them some quotes from WT literature that are negative toward JWs reading other books and literature and being negative about their own children (and adults) from getting a higher education. In effect, they are distributing literature and expounding on their logic of all worldly books and expanded learning in world affairs, politics, other religions, and science - essentially exactly why the library exists in the first place - providing those books, periodicals, videos, and other resources to the community.

Maybe that will get their attention. They could ask JW representatives to come and meet with them and explain their public rejection of higher education and worldly learning. Have them ask for samples of WT literature encouraging their kids to go to the library frequently, to study science and history - or to read classic literature. Since none of that exists, but plenty of WT literature is available that rejects "worldly learning," maybe they would treat the WT reps the same way as they would someone passing out racist or inflammatory political tracts. Ask them if they would let Hari Krishnas dance on the steps and beg for money? Would they let the Westboro Church set up on the steps and wave their anti-gay and anti-veteran signs?

Ask them if they would be willing to let any church, cult, or radical political group set up racks on the steps? Maybe you could go to other nearby communities and ask their library administrators if they would let JWs set up on their steps or in their lobbies. If not, ask them why not and how they would stop the JWs from doing that? Have the city council pass a law or a set of guidelines that the library could refer to?

Even if you fail completely, just think of the great anti-witness you would present as you visit all these community leaders. Sometimes politicians can get their lawyers to find an angle that will work. On the other hand, who knows? Maybe the WT is looking for a "freedom of religion" case they can promote to divert everyone from all the child abuse cases they are involved in.

JV

17

Transfer of Bank Balances and Kingdom Halls.

by kramer in

jw
friends

two things related to ongoing comments regarding forgiving of loans / transfer of balances to the wtbs and the ownership of kingdom halls.

firstly, i would argue that congregations don't care that bank balances have been transferred to the society.

i would contend that people contribute to the preaching work, and that's it , so long as there is enough in the bank to maintain the hall with a reasonable reserve, then i doubt many would argue against it.

Juan Viejo2

If the Watchtower is really hurting for money and want the massive outflow to stop, I have three suggestions for them:

1. Stop protecting pedophiles and other criminals in Kingdom Halls. Report them to the police and let the courts handle the cases. Guess what? No more lawsuits for millions of dollars from injured victims and innocent children. They have to know in their hearts that Jehovah really does not want them to protect criminals - and he certainly does not want those criminals among his followers. The only reason the Watchtower is being sued is the fact that they have interjected the local (untrained and unsympathetic) elders into decision-making situations that should be left to the victims, their families, and the police. [Does the Watchtower ever really gain anyone worthwhile from their prison ministries? Other than conscientious objectors who were already JWs, why would you want to have murderers, rapists, thieves and con-men joining and showing up in your Kingdom Halls? Let them come on their own - don't recruit them.]

2. Let individual Jehovah's Witnesses follow their own conscience when a blood transfusion is required. Let them take responsibility for their own lives. If punishment by God is involved, let them and Jehovah sort it out.

3. Encourage young JWs to get higher educations. Let them get smart and trained in advanced skills so that they can make higher incomes and then contribute more to the "world-wide preaching work." They've already got enough poorly educated members in their organization - why not have a few smart ones? Just think - let the colleges teach the brothers how to write, speak in public, debate others, do research for the publications. One reason the Mormons are so successful is that most of their young people of both sexes are college educated. Ever hear of Brigham Young University? Yes, one of the best in the United States - and it even has non-Mormons attending. Maybe a few well-educated and trained brothers and sisters in the writing department will bring some life back to the books and hand-out literature.

JV

17

Transfer of Bank Balances and Kingdom Halls.

by kramer in

jw
friends

two things related to ongoing comments regarding forgiving of loans / transfer of balances to the wtbs and the ownership of kingdom halls.

firstly, i would argue that congregations don't care that bank balances have been transferred to the society.

i would contend that people contribute to the preaching work, and that's it , so long as there is enough in the bank to maintain the hall with a reasonable reserve, then i doubt many would argue against it.

Juan Viejo2

This eventual takeover was foreshadowed by the Menlo Park, California Kingdom Hall takeover back in 2011-2012. The Watchtower Society not only took over the Kingdom Hall that had been paid for (and paid off completely) with private and local funds, but disfellowshipped the then current elders (who were also board of trustees for the property) when they objected.

The whole story has been replayed many times on this forum and also on Ex-JW.com and YouTube. In spite of the unforeseen events and final disposition of the Menlo Park affair, no one could see that within just a few months after the State Court ruled in favor of the Watchtower on a case relating to alleged bank fraud and deed issues - and the United States District Court for Region 9 refused to act on complaints filed there, the mold for the future was cast.

Essentially both courts, by their rulings and rejection of the BOE complaints, opened the door for the Watchtower to take over every Kingdom Hall in the United States with impunity, whether those halls were financed by the Watchtower Society or completely with local funds and private gifts.

Just think back 5 years and realize how far things have progressed. The Watchtower has become even more of a real estate holding company than a publishing company. Yes, they still do some printing, but compared to the heydays of 1950- 2000, "publishing" has mostly just become a front for them. Now it's all about buying and selling properties, mostly in the United States. They are now reaping the rewards of all those volunteer hours and donations that were used to buy, expand, and build from scratch the many buildings bought at fire-sale prices dating back to the 1920s.

To think that they have already sold off well over a billion dollars in properties in New York and Brooklyn, but now have another billion-plus offer for several more buildings - and they still own more than a dozen others in New York. A "billion" (or a thousand-million in most other countries) is a very, very big number - even if it is only an accounting entry in some bank account. I could pay off most of my debt and go out to dinner once a week with a billion dollars.

The Watchtower is pleading poverty, but that is just more of their misdirection. Like a magician, they say "look over there" while what they are really doing is going on behind their back or being manipulated inside their jacket or up their sleeves. A billion dollars could pay every JW child abuse victim a substantial amount, and they would still have a ton of assets - not counting what comes in every month.

Like the fictional Wizard hiding behind the curtain, their act is all smoke, mirrors and self-puffery. Some day they will be exposed for what they have been doing. Eventually, some right-hearted Bethel attorney or officer in the organization will see the light and want to do the right thing - and expose all of the black secrets behind that curtain.

Ray Franz did it once. There just has to be another brave soul who will eventually come out and tell the truth.

May that day come soon...

JV

14

Watchtower Web Domains

by Petraglyph in

jw
friends

i did some reverse domain lookups to see what web domains were linked to watchtower.

i did reverse lookups on the hostmaster address, building address, and phone number.

i've sorted and deduplicated the results.. bethelres.org.

Juan Viejo2

A company or individual will often buy up a whole series of domain names that might have some connection to them or their corporate websites.

In the case of the Watchtower, they may have wanted to get ahead of the game once they decided to dive in to the deep end of the Internet pool.

You never know when some "apostate" webmaster or group might grab a domain that is close to a site name that you plan to build your image around. Several popular websites had to rethink their own domain names or abandon them entirely and start over because someone grabbed a similar domain that might create problems later.

Sometimes they find that someone else has a very similar name that already is either very popular (thereby creating the possibility of trademark confusion) or has been used for some nefarious deed (former porn or scam site). Potential competitors, enemies or scoundrels might grab a dot net or dot info domain and then make it seem to associated with your site in some way - and then use those domains to trash your reputation.

Some of the above are not live and make no sense at all - but may have been used as test sites. With very unusual domain names few people would be likely to stumble across them before they are ready. It's easy enough to build a new site on a bogus domain that no one will stumble across or a subdomain that no one would be looking for (i.e., http://subdomain.domain.com).

With most new domain names available for between $7 and $25 US, a big corporation could buy up dozens and never use them - and then just let them expire after a year or two if they are not needed.

JV